“BUT TO CREATE MUSIC ON IT - THAT IS A VERY DEMANDING ART"

CLARA ROCKMORE in talks with Charles Amirkhanian and Laurie Spiegel about her practice of the Theremin - NEW YORK CITY, MARCH 7TH, 1979

CHARLES AMIRKHANIAN: This is Charles Amirkhanian speaking, together here with the composer Laurie Spiegel and the noted theremin virtuoso Clara Rockmore at her apartment in New York City. Over the next minutes we would like to talk about her career as an interpreter (of the theremin) and the experience that Mrs. Rockmore has encountered with her instrument. She is and has been the most important theremin virtuoso, and in this brief talk we will hear how Clara encountered the Theremin and established her career. Mrs.Rockmore, perhaps you could start by telling us, where you grew up and what had been your original instrument of choice?

CLARA ROCKMORE: I was born in Russia and had been a concert violinist since the age of 6 years (I had started to play the violin at age 4). I had been a student of the famous Leopold Auer (Hungarian violinist and renowned teacher, 1845-1930). I am proud to say that I continued my studies with Leopold Auer in the US, after my arrival here. My sister, Nadia Reisenberg, a renowned pianist and myself, we managed to play our way to America across Europe from Russia. Once here, I continued my studies with Professor Auer that I had started at the conservatory in Leningrad (called Petrograd at the time), I was the youngest pupil they had ever accepted..

CHARLES: When did you arrive in the United States. Which year?

CLARA: I won’t say, because once people start to carefully calculate, they will find out how old I am. That’s why I choose not to make specific time references regarding my arrival, the duration of my stay, etc. In any case, I am here long enough to have been married for several years, and I should speak without a Russian accent. But because I do speak Russian all the time, the accent persists - I hope that is ok.

CHARLES: I would like to ask you how you managed the big transition from violin to a theremin?

CLARA: The “big transition” happened naturally and slowly. I met professor Theremin in the USA and, as said before, I had been a student of Professor Auer and I had been a very active violinist. I was fascinated by the Theremin - such an etheric instrument; the way of playing it, I think, is extraordinarily beautiful…the idea of movements with fingers and hands in the air, its raffinesse….it made a big impression on me. Luckily I have perfect pitch, which is almost necessary to play the instrument. Professor Auer had been very enthusiastic about my obvious capacity to comprehend it faster than other people, and I really wanted to play it. (I really wanted to become good at it). But around that time I had been a very busy violinist and I could not imagine finding the time, or the interest in changing instruments. I could try out something else, and I also played the piano, but I would have never imagined to change instrument. Years later I experienced a fateful mishap. I had problems with my right arm and had to stop playing the violin. (I don’t talk about it very often. It’s very painful for me.) But I wanted to make music, and (Leopold) Stokowski said to me once... or said about me: ”This girl could make music with a kitchen stove, she is music!” Music is inside me, and I had to find a solution: I returned to this fascinating instrument, which, at the time, was only used by me for very simple melodies. Glissandi were mostly applied, as nobody dared to jump an octave or even further - landing on the accurate note. And that’s why I decided to find out, if one could make music with this device. My starting point on the theremin is, I think, different from all the other players, who are working with electronic instruments: it consists of me not being interested in producing sound effects. I don’t want to produce ghost sounds for film (which is terrible and I never did it). Instead, I wanted to see if it (the theremin) could offer a new voice, a new medium, to produce music.

CHARLES: You say the instrument attracts people who want to produce “ghost sounds” (spooky sounds): this being the first, that composers envisioned. Now, when you are playing the instrument, you have nothing to touch, no threads, strings or resonant bodies. How do you accomplish clean pitches if you only “wave” your hands in the air, how did you develop your technique?

CLARA: Well, my training in playing the violin because there you have four strings to work with. Here (with the theremin) there are no strings, I only hold the note as long as my hand is completely motionless in the air - which is not easy in itself, because the slightest motion, that one’s body or face produces, influences it immediately, as your whole body is within the electro-magnetic field. That’s why one has to be extremely quiet (motionless) if you are playing. And now to answer your question about exact playing: I could not call myself a musician if playing every note with a glissando. Think about a swimmer who dives from great height - If he does not reach the water ..oh, to bad - you have to learn, through exercise, through instinct. I taught myself, developing (composing) exercises for the instrument - you do not imitate other exercises. You create your own. I wanted to create my own method. For instance you play C to c, and then all intervals in between. That’s how you can move from octave to octave, and you develop an exact feeling for the size of the intervals. It is impossible to put it into words, but it needs much practice, great patience and sensitivity... it is such a sensitive instrument.

CHARLES: How do you explain the fact that there has been no other player who can play the instrument as virtuosically as you do?

CLARA: This I regret. I deeply regret this. And I ask myself if there are any people who are looking into this challenge. As I am doing something that nobody else does - it is trial and error. I have nobody that could have lead me, as to what might be possible with this instrument. As I have told you before, I played the whole Cesar Franck Sonata, all four movements, and I tried out about ten sonatas, until I found one that I could play from beginning to end. I played Schelomo by Ernst Bloch with the Philadelphia Orchestra, which compares approximately to telling a cellist, to only play with one string. Of course it is so much more difficult. But it is possible. Still, a very easy Handel Sonata, written in a way that one can change effortlessly from string to string, is impossible to play on a Theremin as it takes too much time to go from one note to the next...

CHARLES: Why do you think no one has been able to play the instrument well? Why is there only one Clara Rockmore who can play the instrument well and no other player?

CLARA: I am embarrassed to ask myself this question...

CHARLES: Were there only very few instruments?

CLARA: There were many instruments available during that period. RCA produced the instrument and many people tried it. Until recently I had been asked by Professor Theremin (who is director of the department of acoustics at the Moscow conservatory, the inventor of the instrument and a good friend) to come to the Soviet Union to play concerts. And I asked him repeatedly why. He is at the conservatory, where so many wonderful musicians are hailing from. Why is there no new Clara Rockmore, a better Clara Rockmore? Perhaps you noticed on the record, that you have, that Professor Theremin confirmed in writing that I am the only person in this world who plays the way I do... So I am an oddity; unfortunately I am...

LAURIE SPIEGEL: What I notice with the theremin as with many other electric instruments, is that the availability of these instruments (even though this is now no longer valid for synthesizers) is very limited; and that makes it more difficult for additional players to acquire the instruments and to practice with them. I very much would like to know if people who are interested in this instrument could approach you and contact you, or if for instance someone is interested in building the instrument, because the availability is often the main restriction for someone wanting to make music. I think this is a problem that the theremin has shared with all other electronic instruments, putting aside recent mass production of new synthesizers.

CLARA: This is this a very good question, and I am glad that you have asked. It is my hope to not only interest young musicians in the instrument, but also young engineers and inventors. For this is the space age, the time when a seven years old child walks into a super market and the door opens automatically and isn’t thinking that this is at all strange, that the same electromagnetic field (it is the same idea, the same principle) has been applied (to making music). I think the time is right now for new instruments to be built. And if I can help with my playing to raise enough interest in people to not only wanting to learn how to play but to also make instruments available, this would this be my biggest wish and hope. I would be happy to teach and to share my insights (secrets) with anyone who wants to play. But I cannot teach a person who has no instrument to practice on. It is an instrument that, already when you only pass by it, is already producing sound. Anyone can do this very easy, once a person is within the electromagnetic field. But to make music with it... that is an exact art! Nobody expects that you take a violin in your hand and you start playing like Heifetz (Jasha Heifetz - violinist). It just doesn’t work like that. You have to practice and to learn how to do it. And I won’t teach it to someone who only comes because of curiosity and plays for half an hour on my instrument. Then he will only play a few wrong notes. That is pointless. But if you would have an instrument at home that is well build and functional, I would be pleased to teach you. Only now does the theremin get attention. We now live in the space age. Professor Theremin was ahead of his time. I saw a TV set in his living room before TV was invented. In other words, he already had it before it was on the market, before it was sold and with this instrument it is the same. It is shocking for me that in this space age the theremin is the only electronic instrument that is exclusively controlled in space (“room controlled”).

CHARLES: I notice that you pronounce his name “Tehrman” in a French pronunciation and not an English pronunciation. Where does his name derive from?

CLARA: I pronounce Theremin’s name in French because I am of Russian heritage and know how he pronounced his own name. It is of French origin.

CHARLES: You played concerts for many years with Paul Robeson, the American bass baritone and activist. I am very curious about how you two met. A very unusual collaboration, I would think.

CLARA: Here you see - you cannot show this to your listeners - the original Epstein sculpture of Paul Robeson’s head. He was a good friend of my husband, who was his lawyer throughout his whole career and mentor. My husband was very interested in theater productions and I “inherited” Paul, when I married my husband, Robert Rockmore. He was not only a lawyer, but also a collector of art and interested in theater. Usually he (Paul Robeson) had an additional artist to share his program with, as it was too long for one singer. He was quite famous at the time. I had just played a concert with my sister in the NY Town Hall and played the César Franck Sonata and the Nardini Concerto and I had gotten wonderful reviews, that he read and was aware of. He invited me to do a concert tour with him, from coast to coast. We were both signed to Columbia. I had been with Columbia management and he was also part of it. That’s how the first tour happened. It was such a big success that the two of us continued concert touring. Altogether we performed approximately 150 concerts together.

CHARLES: Did you ever perform a duet with him?

CLARA: No no. We never did. He had his own accompanist, I performed my two sets. He performed his two sets.

CHARLES: Who accompanied you?

CLARA: Oh, I had several, I had several. William Schatzkammer was one of them. I always had my own accompanist. My sister never played a concert of that kind. She only played with me at my solo sets.

CHARLES: Had there ever been a bigger composition for you with orchestra?

CLARA: I am afraid that I have to say that there is only one large scale composition, which was not only written for me but it has also been performed by me several times. It was a concerto for theremin and orchestra, written by Anis Fuleihan - encouraged by Leopold Stokowski to be written, who was my biggest admirer and who also helped me a lot throughout my career. It also was due to his recommendation that I performed Schelomo by Ernest Bloch with the Philadelphia Orchestra, which was one of my first major appearances with an important work, and it was he, who wished for a composition to be specifically written for me. The concert of Anis Puleihan was born, and I played it under Stockowski about four times - I also played it with the Philadelphia Orchestra under a different conductor and I played it with the NY Philharmonic Orchestra.

CHARLES: What style of music is this concerto?

CLARA: Not too modern, but modern enough in its harmonies. The first movement was rhapsodic, the second movement was a beautiful pastorale and the third movement, believe it or not, all staccato, which showed the instrument’s possibility.

LAURIE: I wonder if you have any specific advice for composers who are listening and would perhaps like to write for the instrument. What type of material would be especially suited or unsuited? I could imagine that arpeggios for instance are very difficult, scales instead more doable. Perhaps you have a recommendation or tip for which kind of materials?

CLARA: Wonderful question! I am grateful that you asked me this. It is important for the people, that if they hear of electronic sounds, they think immediately of crazy, strange sounds and strange rhythms. Everything has to be strange and loud and noisy, whereas the motion-controlled theremin that I play is more like a singer who has all voices available - a singer who can sing bass, baritone, tenor, mezzo soprano and the soprano. If you imagine a singer who can combine all those voices - think about it, wouldn’t it be interesting to compose? But mainly one should keep in mind that it should be melodic. It is melody that sounds beautiful on it - not jumps. And you are right with the assumption that arpeggios are not really possible - physically. And as I said before, I think that the four string things like a simple passage in a Handel sonata (Clara sings a short example) … it takes too much time! You might think how can she play Schelomo by Bloch, one of the hardest pieces ever, and not a simple Handel sonata? Well, Schelomo by Bloch has, as you mentioned, all intervals close together, and it has a very dramatic, a very deep quality. It is a very expressive instrument, and it has the advantage that you can play it low (in volume) like a whisper. Orchestras love me, because they never have to hold back - there are no restrictions for the volume of playing. The volume is solely determined by my musical taste, and I won’t yell or scream, but I can be louder than an orchestra, even if it plays with full power, which has the advantage that they do not have to lower their overall volume, like for instance with a cello as to not overpower it. Where the score requires, one can play out the notes and the instrument will still be heard.

CHARLES: I asked myself before we conducted this interview why Leon Theremin wanted to build an instrument that sounds similar to a voice or a violin. Possibly this (factor) could be increased even more and in connection with an orchestra it could be used in many other ways as well. Did he have a specific vision as to the result he wanted to achieve in the electronic sound quality?

CLARA: It is this not the only instrument that he invented. It was the only space controlled instrument he invented. At the time he also had an electric cello (it was called electric cello). And even if I can’t remember all the technical aspects in detail, it was played like a cello held between knees. Instead of a bow it had a button, that you moved up and down to control the volume, and one used one’s fingers more or less as you normally use them on a fingerboard. He had several other ideas. And I think, I believe, he wanted this instrument to be used as a solo instrument. And Stokowski was so enthusiastic about the theremin that he was the one who seriously developed the idea that I should have this solo on the space-controlled theremin and around me the orchestral background combined with this electronic instrument - in other words - to have me as a soloist. But the idea never established itself, for reasons that will make you laugh, even though it was not funny: the (musician’s) union did not allow it. They thought that because of Stokowski’s famous name and my participation as a soloist and about half a dozen of electric instruments, set up around the orchestra, that a whole orchestra would become unemployed. I had no idea .. it is incredible but that is what happened. Robert Moog, who produced my record and was so excited about my instrument and who pulled me out of my self-chosen retirement, had originally had the idea, that we make this record - it is on 13 tape recordings - to record more pieces that we would have needed for a record that we made. This will, so we hope, be done, with the synthesizes as orchestral background, being used as to replace the traditional orchestra.

LAURIE: You mentioned your self-imposed retirement that you have currently stepped out of very actively. I would like to know your opinion about the future of the instrument is and if you anticipate a new wave of concerts featuring the theremin with you interpreting on it, this perhaps leading to the beginning of a revival of the instrument where the Theremin will be appreciated by society as an instrument because of its unique musical qualities. Or do you think that the interest for the instrument will soon pale again? At the moment you are, I think, very busy. Since your record was released, there’s been tremendous interest in the instrument, something that has not happened for quite some time.

CLARA: I refuse to be discouraged. I am very encouraged. Because after I had made the record, I participated in the TV show “’Canberra Two” and had overwhelming success. And one month ago I participated in a live radio broadcast on WQXR, where I played an interesting program, as for instance the middle set of the Concerto for 2 Violins by Bach. I performed Bachianas Brasileiras (No. 5) where I played the singing voice and the middle voice that is usually played by cello, and also the Bach Aria with 8 cellists of the cello society. The reactions were overwhelming. Many enthusiastic letters arrived. And most recently I recorded a film for a TV program in Europe, for Germany (a few days ago I received the recording) which hopefully will be shown in several different TV programs that are not directly about my instrument. But you can see what it is and you can hear the record. So there is hope and certainly it is my hope. I am not in it for myself, but as long as I am still here, people can use the advantage of my being able to teach them and to tell them about it.

CHARLES: You said you preferred not to play many concerts outside of New York?

CLARA: The instrument is very delicate, and its transport is complicated. When I went on tour, I had a special case for it and a special technician along who set up my instrument. And it is quite expensive to bring along my own technician. Simply practical reasons. I am not saying that I did not want to play with important orchestras close by, but it is not that simple. You can’t lift a theremin and carry it around. It is very fragile. That’s why I was not eager to travel with the instrument.

CHARLES: It is said that after Robert Moog had heard you play, he was inspired to build his synthesizer. Could you please tell us this story?

CLARA: I would not dare to confirm this theory. I think he is a genius. I mean, the synthesizer made him very famous. I had always enjoyed his appreciation, towards myself as well as towards the instrument, and I think that it possibly pointed him into the direction towards synthesizers.

CHARLES: What difficulties did you experience as a woman who plays the theremin? You think it was more unusual, for instance in the Forties, for a women to perform than a man?

CLARA: Quite to the contrary. I am not one of those feminists. I find them very silly. I think we would be further ahead if we had equal rights in addition to the extra attention, the delicacies - I love to get flowers, to receive applause. And I never had to suffer. Quite the contrary, I think I had more success. And when the NY Times once wrote that Mrs. Rockmore in her red dress looked “sensational’, it was not offensive to me. I was happy to be a woman. And it is a very aesthetic instrument, beautiful to watch. No I think it was an advantage.

CHARLES: Could you remember the first time when you heard the instrument? What was your reaction the very first time?

CLARA: When I heard it the very first time, it was in professor Theremin’s apartment at the Plaza Hotel, when he first arrived to this country. I think it was Joseph Schillinger who brought me along - just as a musician, that wanted to experience something interesting. I was fascinated. I was truly fascinated. Professor Theremin was not a professional musician, he played a bit cello (very musical and with a beautiful tone). It was overwhelming. You can imagine what an impression it made on me to turn it into a second career.

CHARLES: As to Joseph Schillinger, not many people know of him today. Could you tell us about him?

CLARA: We were friendly….that’s about it. He was a composer and developed a beautiful theory. He helped Gershwin finishing some of his scores, and he is a musicologist. He worked on rhythmics, worked also with Professor Theremin. He worked on several projects.

CHARLES: Did you ever play the Rhythmicon?

CLARA: No, no…I never played the Rhythmicon. It is simply a different calculation - rhythms against rhythms.

CHARLES: Do remember having heard it?

CLARA: I remember to have seen it, in Professor Theremin’s studio. It is not an instrument, that can be played. It is mathematical calculation…Schillinger had been very active in its development, I believe.

LAURIE: I remember that Schillinger had been most interested in the relationship between mathematical and musical structures.

CLARA: That is exactly right. That is what I had tried to say but you expressed it much better.

CHARLES: Now we want to play now side A of the released record by Delos, capturing Clara Rockmore’s playing. But before we listen to this record - could you tell us something about the repertoire? Most of it is Russian, isn’t it?

CLARA: On this record, yes. The selection of the pieces was left to the Delos Company. Lots more had been recorded on tape, which is ready for an additional release.

CHARLES: Additional pieces?

CLARA: Yes, Yes. But these pieces were chosen first. Maybe because I am Russian and because they liked it. Perhaps they thought that those pieces will sell well. I don’t know the reasons for the selection. When I recorded Bach, I chose completely different works.

CHARLES: Did you have to prepare the works yourself?

CLARA: I played cello pieces, as they were written for cello. Works for violin, as they were written for violin. Occasionally I changed the octaves, higher or lower, depending on what sounded better. In the Franck - Sonata I changed, I think, 4 measures. But these are very small changes, as I am trying to seriously interpret what the composer wrote.

CHARLES: One of the most impressive pieces on side A is the Vocalise by Rachmaninov. Did you choose it as the first piece for Side A?

CLARA: No, no, this was the record company.

This interview was recorded for broadcast over KPFA Radio in Berkeley, CA, by Charles Amirkhanian, assisted by Laurie Spiegel, March 7, 1979, in Clara Rockmore’s apartment in New York City.  Translated back into English by Dorit Chrysler in 2020 from the German-language translation published in Neuland / Ansatze zur Musik der Gegenwart Jahrbuch, Band 4 (1983/84) The original audio recording of this interview has disappeared (If anyone reading this interview has access to the original tapes, their return would be greatly appreciated).

For More Information About CLARA ROCKMORE visit the Nadia Reisenberg/ClaraRockmore Foundation

The NY THEREMIN SOCIETY would like to thank Laurie Spiegel and Charles Amirkhanian for their permission in publishing this interview.

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